Welcome to ChaoticAbyss

The purpose of this thread will be to discuss the development of Chaotic Abyss for Neverwinter Nights 2.  Anything is open so long as it involves this particular topic.

Of particular interest are the following items:

1.  What do you like about the current module that should remain unchanged.
2.  What you disklike about the current module that should be changed or removed.
3.  What makes a Persistent World enjoyable and keeps you coming back for more.
4.  Key elements you feel should be in a role playing server.
5.  Key elements you feel should be in an action oriented hak-n-slash server.

I think we should stick to the background we have already made, although I would not mind doing a mod based on the middle ages.  Our current background is wide open and sufficiently broad to allow a limitless number of plot lines without stepping on "established history".  Of course basing one on Forgotten Realms would have the advantage of player recognition.

I also think our area development should be much more focused this time.  I know my development was all over the place, based upon what I was trying to learn at the moment.  This time I think the focus should be on completing areas and integrating quests into those areas.  (a list of possible quests should be started under development).

I'd also like to have some type of jail system in the next mod.  I've played around with it some but haven't come up with anything I really like.  The biggest problem with jail is players bailing out because they don't want to wait.  I would think 2 minutes for pickpocket, assuming obsidian fixes that ridiculous system, 5 for theft, and 10 for murder.  Hopefully NWN2 will include some of Jasperre's AI improvements which would help the guards act like they should.

I also like the idea of building reputation into everything.  We could start a players rep at 50 and adjust based on actions and even how they treat NPCs.  We might be able to use some of the current reputation system.  Since nwn2 will go to level 20 I think we should consider level 10 and above to be epic for this purpose.  Below 10 reputation adjustments would be minor due to the players anonymity, but after 10 greater changes would be made since they will be well known by then.

I also think that since NWN2 will only go to level 20 ... players at level 10 and above should loose a level when they die. In the current mod I think 10 also but perk thinks 20 ... and 20 isn't so bad ...

I agree with loosing a level.  It will keep people from repeatedly attacking an impossible target immediately after gaining a level until they get the treasure drop.  We see a lot of that on the current mod but early players were against loosing a level.  I think 9 levels will be enough to learn the module.  I'm not sure multiple level loss should be possible though.  For instance, you die at level 11 and 20 minutes later you die again putting you back to level 9.  Unfortunately anyone willing to die twice with that setup would then be able to kill anyone they wanted, assuming they could get back to the target before they regenerated which is not very likely.

if they are dumb enough to try that ... then they should loose that 2nd level also ... that will teach em

It is not about being dumb but about running into a situation you can't get out of.  I've been killed a few times on CA and I know every trap and monster.  Inevitably someone is going to be killed in one area and a few minutes later killed in a completely different area.  I'm just not sure that loosing multiple levels would not detract from the game play.

if you die the first time there ... then it is dumb to go try again just after you have died there ... logic has it that you just might die there again ...especially now that you have lost a level. Remember that when you die you are resurected in the same place, and we are only going to take the level if you respawn. If you are resurected, then a loss of level is not necessary. We where not afforded that luxury in AA ... but I see no reason to make them loose a level if they are resurected. Do you? Just hope you have a friend there with a scroll and he don't die either...

I specifically said two different areas.  If you run back and get killed in the same area back to back then dumb is definitely the word of the day.  Speaking of being killed, my thief was killed in the north coast pirate hold last night.  The spawner is pretty cool but it might be tougher than I intended.  I really need to try it with my Sorc if I can get him out of that loop.

Fighting here is quite different from AA and its much easier to get into something you can not extract yourself from and the baddies have a tendency to chase you down.  I know I would hate to go try a new area, loose a level, and then try another new area and die again.  I think you should only be able to loose one level per session or one level until you gain a level.  So at 12 you would drop to 11 and you could not loose another level until you had reached 12 again.

I don't think it detracts from the game. I think it adds being careful into the mix. If you are going to try new areas ... then you had better have a friend with Greater sancturary and either resurection scrolls or is a cleric. My thinking is that by the time you are level 10 you know where things are and kinda how tough they are, and you have also made friends with whom you can party up to go have a look at these new areas with.
I also feel that we should limit parties from forming or adding to if they are more than 5 levels away. That would keep a level 15 guy getting to much XP from having a level 1 in the party who is just getting XP from being there and doing nothing. *and we wonder how you can go from level 1 to 15 so fast ...*
I would also venture to say that once someone looses a level they are going to get it back before they go to any new areas. I know I would ... I did in AA, but as far as game play ... there are some baddies in there that "chased" you as well. Also in AA you have to be very careful when you fight not to take to long because things are not "visual" and there is no running around in a room while your ring regens your life in case you ran out of heals. I have died in AA where I simply took to long and a door leading out closed at the most inconvient time. Heals are taken very seriously in AA so that you don't meet your maker, so should they be here as well. At least more than they are taken for now ... Only time I have used a heal or healed someone else was during the DM event. Otherwise I really don't need to use them ... that should not be the case. I feel that you should fall all the way back to 10 if you die enough. Perhaps partying, playing with clerics/res scrolls, and potions/medkits would become more important.

I agree with all of it in principle, especially limiting the party levels.  Heals and such are important here but their impact is limited because you can't loose a level.  Granted I don't want to earn 15k of xp again since xp slows down quite a bit on CA, but it isn't detrimental like loosing a level is.  I'm not sure that loosing more than one level adds anything to the game play though,. granted you couldn't go past 10.  I don't really care but I'm sure you can expect some grief from players.

IMO it adds caution to the game ... managing what you want to do with your ability to accomplish it and what you need to accomplish it. It adds complexity and thought to the game ...

I feel i must bring this up as it has just came to my attention.

NWN2 currently will not be supported by the linux operating system. when they will have support for it is unknown as they have yet to realese a date on it.


thought i would bring that to the table


thanks,
Drakaen

If it comes to that we have options ... Wine is one ... the other is another server we have laying around that has windows running ... It is not as beefy, but I am not going to install Windows on the current machine ...

thanks,
Podilarius

PS. Hopefully they will have Linux support for dedicated server out soon ...
PPS ... We are going to have to have time to work on the mod to get it either ported to NWN2 or redone ... so we shall see.

okay, i know this is years later, but after playing on a bunch of different worlds, and playing a lot of pnp too, heres some things i would really like to see for nwn2:

i like the idea of loosing a lvl on respawn, especially after a certain point.  I know i was opposed to in originally, and i think it should be prevented from happening in the first couple of lower lvls, but after- 10 seems like a good lvl- the player should have a general idea of the monsters and areas.  also this really promotes party play (something i've grown to like) and increases the value of heals, buffs, and strategy.  i'm not sure if i agree with automatic loss of lvl, but a % of xp that can drop the pc a lvl.  the only real gripes i have are lag deaths and people shouting for clerics to run across the world to res them when theyre dead.

also, i really liked the reputation system, and was wondering if that could be used for more than just alignment.  while killing good monsters made someone evil, killing challenging monsters gives the pc a more heroic reputaion, giving access to cheaper/more exotic goods, ect.  but maybe it could be used to create factions, like members of the good guild get attacked on sight by members of the evil guild, and i know this was mentioned earlier, i just wanted to second it :)

something i've found i dislike about persistant worlds is the "start at main town and go to area, then port back to main town" form of adventuring.  i think this world did shy away from that  a lot, with the many many areas, and i think if that was further built upon, that would be pretty cool.  eg:  main quest could be to get from starter town to next town, but a lot of side quests and npcs to be found along the way.  i liked the "openness" of the current mod, which left a lot of room for development, and really see no reason to change it, and just try and further populate the surrounding areas to the towns as time goes on.

lastly, and i know this was something that was being implimented as well, an emphasis on the "ignored" skills and feats in nwn.  too often, theres some fighter/weaponmaster with 20 points cross classed in tumble and spellcraft, which has really been bothering me.  if the fighter heavy skills were in more demand to get fighter based things, people may be reluctent to spend their skill points in things they really have no business spending their skill points on.

anyway, hope to see u all when nwn2 comes out :)
Justin

oo, just thought of this, it would also be cool if there were a better nigth and day system, even weather.  i havent really checked out too much of what nwn2 will bring, cause i figure i'll find out when i buy/play it, which i'm sure will happend.  i just hate that shops dont close, different monsters at night, etc...

Well we can already do the day and night monster and stores. Weather, we have looked at, but when we had it running we killed off our newbie characters with lightning strikes. So that was nixed for now.

Thanks for the suggestion.

1. -The current mod has nice large areas in the wilderness and a world map.
    -I really like the scripts in the mod.

2.  -Propably the only minus is that earning gold is just a little bit too easy, in my opinion.

3.  -Crafting is one very important element in a PW, just as social contacts. One central meeting point for players creates social contacts, and social contacts give the possibility for trade, sharing information and simply making friends.

4.  -A good role play server should not have too harsh rules and the general atmosphere should not be too serious. Sense of humour and relaxed playing, those make role playing fun.

5.  -Lots of quests and exciting areas.
     -Not too many powerful items. The character build itself should be more important than collecting the best items on the server.
     -Fairly easy start-up, which means, for example: no XP penalty on death when below level 3.

1. The large outdoor areas and the map coordinate -system are great. First I kinda hated the long distances, because it seemed that you can't find anything in there, but then after a while I started learning where certain places are (and making notes of the coordinates in the diary) it wasn't that big of a problem.

2. Some of the cities are too big. If you have a colossal city, the whole server could be about that one place, because there would be so much going on. So either they should be full of stuff to do, or smaller. Maybe you could divide the cities into smaller sections so it's easier to design those areas and more people could participate. Or, you could add them when they get finished. Getting gold is too easy, but the issue is of course a bit complicated to fix. I like being able to murder a few guards to get their equipment, but I shouldn't be able to sell them at the general store 20 ft. away from the crime scene, in the middle of the city. Maybe those items could be tagged as being stolen, or something.

3. A good crafting-system, balance between the stuff in the shops and the items that players make so that crafting makes sense.

4. A reason for things to be the way they are. A good background story for the world. Consequences for your characters actions (getting jailed in cities etc). A bit of tolerance also, meaning that as long as the players don't clown around too much, spoiling other people's game experience, they can RP as they want to. It would be also great if the big scary looking creatures weren't too easy to kill (orcs, hobgoblins), and vice versa. (I hate those super-slayer goblins that some servers have)
A server is great when it seems that you can change things in the world and also choose where and how you want your character to live there. And there has to be the odd crypt to loot. Crypt-looting is one of the things that I never get tired of in this game. : )

5. An easyish start to lev 3 or so. Different kinds of challenges, not just big hordes of the same creature or atleast not all the time. Different kinds of creatures in groups that also differ in difficulty. Reasonable supply of heals and buffs from the cities. No permanent haste-items (or after a time, everyone has them). No heal potions (full HP instantly), unless they are terribly expensive. Not too long time for being able to rest again. Resting allowed everywhere. Creatures that are very hard to kill shouldn't be too godly. Or if they are, they should be in some special place that is hard to reach. Areas should be designed so, that you could have some tactics on how to fight, not just big rooms with nothing but the bad guys in there.

This has been some GREAT feedback. I hope that we can get back to developing soon. There is just to much we have going on ATM.

I will start the server backup up for those who like playing.

FYI ... There is going to be another IP change comimg up as we are moving into a more permenant offices.

Thanks Everyone.

Podilarius

Great feedback!

I said I was not going to develop any more but I have to admit the new pictures for NWN2 is making me reconsider, and consider building a new computer so I can play! 

What I'd really like to have is a development team as the time required to create even a small area is quite long.  If I develop for NWN2 it will definitely be more focused.  I like the size of CA but it was definitely a pain to find areas that were remote to your starting area, even with the various hints and directions we gave in the game.  Nothing ever felt complete either since we kept bouncing around trying to fill in holes we thought were critical.  Kohlis is a great example.  We wanted something that actually felt like a city but Kohlis remained virtually empty and it was definitely large enough to be its own module.  I think it would be better to start out with fewer areas with much higher content.  A development team could add areas every week expanding the world and adding towns that are complete.  You could build this into the back-story if you wanted. 

There was a lot of scripting we never truly integrated that I think should be paramount at the start like the reputation system.  We had great goals for it and a good framework in place but then moved on to other content.  I'd like to see reps and skills used to their fullest extent.  Hopefully NWN2 will have made great strides in this respect and we want need to recreate the wheel. 

Gold and heals definitely need to be more balanced this time around.  I think our main problem was wanting to be realistic in that if you killed a guard you should be able to take what he had and that allowed for huge amounts of gold.  We finally started making npc drop generic equipment which I didn't really like and it was to little to late.  Of course the lack of level loss was a huge imbalance as well and re-spawning people in towns didn't really keep them from running back and attacking an npc until it died.  I don't think we have a choice but to keep drops generic because of this and make gold more difficult to obtain. 

I really like the PVP scripts we put in and that has definitely got to stay and be expanded.

Speaking of development, does anyone know if a Lexicon for NWN2 has been created yet?

So reading through these posts here is what I think we should include.

Level loss after level 10.  Loss is a percentage of xp based on lvl, like the code we originally wrote for CA.  Xp loss capped at one level.  At what level should the percentage create an entire loss of level?  Originally we started loosing xp after level 3 and you started loosing level around 9.

Keep the reputation adjustments we have and hopefully expand them to create NPC reactions.  I like the idea of heroism as well and I imagine NWN2 will include some kind of basic system along these lines. 

Use the skills and feats that most people ignore.  NWN sucked at giving us the ability to actually do this.  For instance intimidate was absolutely broken and ridiculous and pickpocket was a complete afterthought.  Assuming they actually work we should incorporate as many as possible into our conversations.  Some of my favorite NPCs where the ones I made while playing around with intelligence checks, although at least one player didn't like the fact that all he could say to those NPCs was DUH.

More use of night/day changes.  We opted not to go this route before so that merchants were also available but I always liked the idea.

Cut out the gold!  Most NPCs should drop generic equipment and to truly limit gold you have to limit the availability of enhanced weapons and armor.  We need to come up with how we want those limits applied, such as nothing common above +1, nothing special above +2 and +3 is considered godly?  What about pack animals and back packs?  Should we all keep the treasure maps?

Keep the map system.  Hopefully the script will just work. 

No permanent haste.  Really hurts when you are running across 150 16x16 maps!  Although the travel system we never actually did anything with would help there.  At least then you can only be about 75 maps from your desired location.


What do you think of this?


Also, should we continue with the background story we have or do something else?  If we start small with one city and expand outward it might be good to start with the arrival of humans, which means humans and elves would soon be at war.

Keep the reputation adjustments we have and hopefully expand them to create NPC reactions.  I like the idea of heroism as well and I imagine NWN2 will include some kind of basic system along these lines. 

Use the skills and feats that most people ignore.  NWN sucked at giving us the ability to actually do this.  For instance intimidate was absolutely broken and ridiculous and pickpocket was a complete afterthought.  Assuming they actually work we should incorporate as many as possible into our conversations.  Some of my favorite NPCs where the ones I made while playing around with intelligence checks, although at least one player didn't like the fact that all he could say to those NPCs was DUH.

I have no clue as to how you've planned the reputation system, but here's some thoughts:

Reputation is earned as good/bad -reputation points that are not subtractable from each other, but add up to a total reputation. This total "score" is then compared to a npc:s "reputation noticement level" (or something). In order for the NPC to have heard of the PC, the PCs total reputation must be higher than the NPCs RNL. This level would of course be according to the location of the NPC (low in big cities merchant areas for example). Then the reaction would be according to the difference of good and bad stuff the PCs has done. This system would aid low-level characters in keeping alive, because you'd have to have a reputation to a certain point, before you'd have whole factions trying to kill you whenever they'd see you (and when that time would come, you'd propably have enough levels to handle it).
Just an idea, don't know if it's even possible script-wise.

Intelligence-check -based dialoques are really great (like in the Fallout-series), it might just be lot of work if combined with the reputation-system. Let's
say 3 different intelligence based dialoques and then a lowest of 3 different choices for good/neutral/bad reputation. Multiplies to 9
different dialoques, with intimidate/bluff -checks on top of that (if needed). Of course the work could be eased up by putting those complicated
dialoques only to important quest NPCs or something.

More use of night/day changes.  We opted not to go this route before so that merchants were also available but I always liked the idea.

I really would like to see some shops that open only during the night-time. You'd have to go there for your kinky +2 burning whips and
necromancy-scrolls ;)

Cut out the gold!  Most NPCs should drop generic equipment and to truly limit gold you have to limit the availability of enhanced weapons and armor.  We need to come up with how we want those limits applied, such as nothing common above +1, nothing special above +2 and +3 is considered godly?  What about pack animals and back packs?  Should we all keep the treasure maps?

I'd say nothing above +1 easily available. If the players want better weapons, they'd have to make their own or buy them from another player.

The pack animals are great, back packs could be non-magical in the stores. Magical ones could be crafted. There's again one good item for the players to craft and sell to other players, everybody needs them anyway.

Keep the map system.  Hopefully the script will just work. 

No permanent haste.  Really hurts when you are running across 150 16x16 maps!  Although the travel system we never actually did anything with would help there.  At least then you can only be about 75 maps from your desired location.

I keep reading on the forums that NWN2 will have a world map for long-distance traveling. No idea how this will work on PWs. If the same kind of map-system as now is possible to make, then perhaps have some teleports or caravans that you could travel with since there are no horses or anything. Rideable horses in the 2.0 CEP and in the Wyvern Crown -mod, but not in NWN2, not even as "monsters" Sad. Perhaps they will fix this in later add-ons.

We have a huge reputation system of which we are using about 2% of.  Right now your good/bad alignment changes based upon your actions.  Good/Evil represents the fundamental makeup of a person and as such is not subject to quick change.  In CA your actions build up over time until a single point of G/E change is made.  Factions and NPC reactions were based upon this and a few other counters. 

Personally I think your G/E shouldn't really affect factions and NPCs because you can't really tell if someone you've never met is good or evil.  Factions and NPC should react to a second rating that could represent the players notoriety in the world.  The greater that notoriety that more people in the world know the player and would then react to the G/E level as well as the actions the player had taken in the world.

We will have to be careful with the monsters we put in as some things can not be hit with a +1 weap.

The problem with pack animals is that you can make a huge amount of gold with them, and they were pain to manage.

I'm not sure if we will be able to modify and use the world map but I hope we can.  That would rock.